But some things are proving very tricky. Were there many pigeons in Rome then? I have had the same problem with pigeons before. How many pigeons were there in Venice in 1576? Clearly not the tide of pigeons that sweeps over the Piazza now. I suppose people probably caught and ate pigeons then. There are never any pigeons in paintings from that period of Venice or Rome, but nor are there any rats or spiders, so that's not a reliable source.
Not a pigeon in sight |
This week, my summer school students have been writing historical fiction. They all came back, astounded at the amount of research they needed to do. Did young women in 1921 wear pyjamas or nightdresses? What did the interior of a bank look like in 1850s Massachusetts? When was spray paint invented? Were there typewriter erasers in 1940?
They have steered clear of more distant historical periods because of the burden of research. But I'm not actually sure it's any harder to research Canterbury in 1375 than Wild West frontier towns in the 1850s. But please, does anyone know the pigeon population of Rome in 1580?
It's a bit too late for Leonardo but no doubt they get mentioned in his diaries!
ReplyDeleteI think there might have been pigeons, as dovecotes were kept back then by the rich, and flights of pigeons would be let out to feed. Wikipedia says they were viewed as a nuisance by peasant farmers. Perhaps in paintings they were screened out as some artists do today with cars - there are no cars in David Gentleman's paintings of London, for instance.
ReplyDeleteLexi, I agree that they are probably left out of paintings (like the rats and spiders), and I know they were around the countryside, but not sure about cities. I suspect poor people might have trapped them for food.
ReplyDeleteI've no idea - but can echo that sinking feeling when you need a historical detail and you've simply no idea how to find out. (Like - what were the toilet arrangements on the ships taking convicts to Australia ...?)
ReplyDeleteNo idea, so no help at all - sorry! But it is amazing the bizarre things you find you need to know. Oh, how I love research.
ReplyDeleteI've written a novel set in my own world with mediaeval details, but my straight historical fiction doesn't go back further than the 1960s. I can look that up in old newspapers at the library and it was during my childhood, so I can remember the lifestyle. :-)
ReplyDeleteTry looking up a university history tutor who specialises in Rennaissance Italy... they usually have an indepth knowledge of what information you can find where and might have some thoughts?
ReplyDeleteif there is no evidence either way (and obviously no one living who can 'correct' you), would it be bad to just include or not include pigeons as required for your story?
ReplyDeleteThank you, everyone, for suggestions. Sue - that's the answer! set it during your own life time. 1960s, here I come...
ReplyDeleteMelinda that is what I do when I have looked long and hard for the answer and can conclude no one know. But the looking has to be done first.
Rachel, I do use university staff a lot for specific questions. I live in Cambridge and have good links with the university here, and my daughter has only just left Oxford, where I used one or two or her professors, too. Living experts are an excellent source of advice and usually very happy to help. But experts in Renaissance Italy know about art, architecture and history, on the whole, and not pigeons. However, my Big Bint is a zoologist, so I can ask her if there are any biological population specialists who work in Renaissance avian history....
I don't know, but I think it's highly unlikely there were many feral pigeons in Venice in the 16th century. The Pigeon Control Resource Centre (http://www.pigeoncontrolresourcecentre.org/html/about-pigeons.html) describes it as a problem that's been around for 'decades', specifically within the last hundred years.
ReplyDeleteThis would also make sense. Feral pigeons only congregate in towns when there's a chance of picking up food, and it isn't really until the 20th century that 'ordinary people' eating outdoors would be sufficiently well off to leave scraps on their dishes and allow crumbs to fall unregarded to the ground. In the 17th century we had PEOPLE who went round begging scraps from dishes, and there wouldn't have been much to spare for pigeons.
Also, as you so rightly say - a pigeon was valuable. They were pretty universally eaten in Europe, and even the guano was so valuable (because it contained gunpowder) that rich people had to post guards outside their dovecotes to prevent people stealing the excrement. I'd guess a live pigeon strolling round the streets of Venice would be snatched within a minute.
And I AM guessing, but I had to look into this while investigating 17th century Paris (specifically the Place Notre Dame) and despite endless detailed contemporary descriptions not one mentioned pigeons. These weren't 'whitewashed' accounts, but real 'warts and all' descriptions, and I think if there'd been pigeons they'd have mentioned them.
I think. :(
With the exception of the excrement, this is all as I suspected, Louise - thank you! The idea of making gunpowder from pigeon poo is brilliant. What a way for a terrorist to get their weapons.... I feel a different story coming on now!
ReplyDeleteComing late to this post, I fear but I too am interested in the toilet arrangements on transportation ships in the 19th century and on Friday I am meeting someone for coffee who just might know. If she enlightens me, I'll come back and put up a comment! Anne is right...it's always a good idea to find an expert and ask lots of questions.
ReplyDeleteWho knew? Pigeons - armed and dangerous
ReplyDelete